/me posting this using Linux

[stevec]

And welcome to the boards.

Thank you muchly.

[stevec]

http://tek-tips.com -- Everything Computer Related is there. Programming, Hardware, Software, Graphics, Web Design.. EVERYTHING.

It's run mostly by computer professionals as a place to go get help if you need it. I've went there plenty of times asking stupid little questions, and gotten ALOT of help from numerous people.

If you're looking for a Forum to expand your horizons, that's the place.

Wow. That is excellent. You are my new personal hero. Thank you so much.

[fuuucckkers]

Linux is not fun to use, in my opinion. Linux, overall, is very counter-intuitive. It's great for server applications, but as a desktop computer, I personally prefer something that's a little more convenient. That's why I like neither Windows nor Linux -- I find I spend more time trying to figure out how to do something, rather than actually being productive.

I find the same thing so true. I'm trying to learn it to get my Server running, but as a Desktop for normal everyday tasks, it's so tedious.. I find I spend more time "trying" to figure out how to make it do this or that..rather than being productive.

... but I think that a lot of people claim to like Linux just because it's so in vogue to say you're a Linux user.

Haha.. That's great. Which is also very true from my experience. I talk to alot of people online, and once I tell them I'm also a Linux user...they automatically think I'm some sort of God or something. They ALWAYS ask me if I'm a "Hacker"

I especially like its server applications ..... But in my experience, it's been more problematic than it's worth

Agreed. I'm still trying to figure out how to get Samba to find my Windows 98 computer on the Network. I had it working once before, but I had to reinstall Mandrake 9.1 due to a "user error".

I think Linux has the potential to be a damn good OS, and I hope to keep seeing it grow, but really, I think it needs to be a lot more user-friendly before it can make great inroads into the desktop market.

Again, Very so much agreed to that statement.
I can't wait for the day the they finally decide to make a "standardized" GUI for ALL Linux Distros. It would make things so much easier on everyone. -- Also the day when it becomes a bit more 'user-friendly' as you like to put it. Maybe a better How-To system, or Help Articles would work as a starting point.

[stevec]

Point noted, but I doubt you've had the fortune of using some newer Macs which are way faster -- especially the new G5's.

If you've gotten to use the new G5s, I'd be hugely impressed. I was under the impression they hadn't been released commercially yet--and if they were it was only in the last week at the MacWorld expo.

I have, actually, used a fast Mac. A dual 1.0GHz G4 with 512 Meg of RAM.

I think maybe I should clear something up. I said Macs prior to OS X were what I didn't consider computers and what I have many and varied problems with (I forgot to mention that I hate that there's no command line access). That totally changes with OS X. While I'm still not very good on it without opening a terminal window, I *love* OS X. Actually, right now I can't think of many things I'd like more than a dual-proc G5. Although *somehow* the GUI is still a bit more sluggish than it really has any right to be (I blame it on all the default effects), the OS as a whole is just beautiful. And best of all, I can get to a command line.

I don't see why everyone looks down on Apple for making both the computers and the OS. Computers made that way function better. Look at SGI workstations and Sun SPARCstations. They're some of the best computers in the world, and they are semi-proprietary. (The same company develops the OS and the computers.)

I don't really look down on them for it. It's understandable and you're right--arguably with the dual G4s and almost undeniably with the G5s, Apples are superior machines. I definitely would like one. What turns me off is the price and the dependence on a single manufacturer. I like the freedom, flexibility, and price point of x86-based computers. I also don't like how inextricably tied together the hardware and software are. The proprietary hardware makes it more difficult to program for at low levels (is assembly programming on PowerPC chips even possible if you don't work for Apple?). I also tend to give Sun a bit of extra credit because they also offer a free version of Solaris for x86 computers. Rumors keep being brought up and quashed about Apple keeping a current version of MacOS that works on x86 in case the company hits great financial troubles. While I really don't see that happening anytime soon, if it did I don't think I'd bother keeping a Windows box around even for sake of beta testing and porting applications. There's nothing I can do on Windows that I wouldn't be happier doing on OS X or some *nix.

Oh, I get it. I'm a Mac user, so that means I know nothing about computers. Ignore the fact that I have a Linux workstation, and a Windows desktop as well, and I work with Sun workstations at work, as well as a few terminals on a System V network. I use a Mac so I know nothing.

Actually I never said nor intended to suggest anything of the sort. Granted by and large most Mac people I know aren't hugely tech-savvy, I also know many converted Unix sysadmins. I also try not to be too judgemental of what other people do or don't know--and definitely not in a condescending way--until they give me a reason to be so. I'm far, far from knowing everything about computers. However, I *do* know more than most people, and I tend to get very put off when someone suggests I don't know what I'm talking about.

Look, I didn't mean to sound brash, but really, I'm tired of people coming around and knocking Macs, and saying how Linux is so much better. Linux is not fun to use, in my opinion. Linux, overall, is very counter-intuitive. It's great for server applications, but as a desktop computer, I personally prefer something that's a little more convenient. That's why I like neither Windows nor Linux -- I find I spend more time trying to figure out how to do something, rather than actually being productive.

Maybe it's not "cool" to use a Mac these days, but I think that a lot of people claim to like Linux just because it's so in vogue to say you're a Linux user.

Again, just my $0.02. Linux is pretty cool for a lot of things -- I especially like its server applications -- and I'd rather use Linux than Windows any day. But in my experience, it's been more problematic than it's worth, and I just think a lot of people -- maybe not you, but a lot of other people -- say Linux rocks just so people think they are really cool.

Maybe it comes more from my background. I've used command-line System V and BSD way more than I've used Linux. I think Linux has the potential to be a damn good OS, and I hope to keep seeing it grow, but really, I think it needs to be a lot more user-friendly before it can make great inroads into the desktop market. I think it would be great if someone could make Linux as simple and friendly as Apple made BSD. I used various Unixes before, but I really like OS X because I have a user-friendly interface, combined with the power of Unix. Someone can make Linux just as much fun to use and believe me, I'm sold.

I'm only knocking pre OS X Macs. I have had *nothing* to give me any reason to like them, and I've given them plenty of chances. Especially in the Windows 95/98 days.

I happen to enjoy using Linux quite a bit. And to be honest, since my last Debian install, I haven't really had *any* problems with this machine. I mean, I know usually Linux is about tweaking things and trying to get edges polished, but I really haven't had to do *anything* for this other than apt-get install whatever software I wanted.

I'm not going to argue that it's not largely counter-intuitive if you're not used to a *nix system. I'm definitely not trying to say that it's the greatest OS ever. I don't evangelize OSes. However, I think Linux gets a lot of undeserved bad rep because of it's historical problems. If you're tech-inclined, it's a great OS. If you want to learn more about computers, it's an excellent OS. If you want something that's a tool--a hassle-free means to an end, such as a word processor or e-mail checker, then it's still pretty good. No where *near* either Windows or Macs on this end, but definitely not bad.

I could really care less what other people say about me as long as they aren't accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about when it comes to something I'm very confident I do know. And yes, I'm fully aware and probably equally annoyed or moreso who chant the Linux mantra because makes them s00per-1337-0. I'm not sure what amount of it is being annoyed with their evangelizing an operating system without having any good reason why, or the fact that I've had many people recently tell me about their running Linux and their cool geekiness and Linux experiences who obviously don't know anything about the system other than RedHat or Mandrake auto-installs everything flawlessly on their computer. I really, really hate how much some people brag about their Linux user status (especially if they start trying to pass themselves off as techies) when they don't even know how to do anything with what they've installed. If you're gonna run an OS, use it. Don't just keep it cause you think it looks pretty.

Linux still has a lot of issues I know and understand fully. I like working with the computer though. I like learning more about it. I'll really like it if I'm able to help shape it and/or effect some kind of small change in bringing it to the next level.

All that being said, if I had to pick a favorite OS, it'd be FreeBSD.

[Michael]

If you've gotten to use the new G5s, I'd be hugely impressed. I was under the impression they hadn't been released commercially yet--and if they were it was only in the last week at the MacWorld expo.

I haven't. What I meant was -- well, from what I have seen, they're damn fast. Can't wait to try one out.

Although *somehow* the GUI is still a bit more sluggish than it really has any right to be (I blame it on all the default effects), the OS as a whole is just beautiful.

Agreed -- try running it on a 700 MHz iBook with 256MB RAM! Now, from what I understand, the Quartz rendering engine is floating-point based, not integer-based, and the G5 is supposed to rip through FPU operations, so supposedly Panther will be faster. But I agree, the GUI is pretty, but I think they could scale down some of the transparencies and effects and make it more fluid. You must admit, OS 9 did have some problems, but at least it was fast.

(is assembly programming on PowerPC chips even possible if you don't work for Apple?).

Hm, good question. I know it was possible on the Motorola chips because I did assembly language programming on really old Macs. However, I've not seen it around for PowerPC-based Macs lately...

Rumors keep being brought up and quashed about Apple keeping a current version of MacOS that works on x86 in case the company hits great financial troubles.

Actually, little-known fact -- in the early 90s, a small group of Apple engineers did port the Mac OS to Intel processors, but Apple's corporate leadership, in their infinite wisdom, decided not to release it, even though it was a finished product.

Actually I never said nor intended to suggest anything of the sort. Granted by and large most Mac people I know aren't hugely tech-savvy, I also know many converted Unix sysadmins.

Actually, my experiences have been different. While not necessarily computer geniuses, Mac users tend to be more knowledgeable about their computers. I attribute this largely to the fact that, if you know nothing about computers, you're probably not going to think about it much when you buy one; and if you don't think about it much, you'll get a PC, because everyone else does. If you buy a Mac, you've obviously thought the decision through -- you don't buy a Mac "by accident" -- and if you think it through, you probably know something about it. It's the same with Unix/Linux -- no one just "accidentally" installs Red Hat on their system.

And yes, I'm fully aware and probably equally annoyed or moreso who chant the Linux mantra because makes them s00per-1337-0.

Right. Since you know what you're talking about (and my apologies for insinuating that you didn't ), you're probably sick of that stuff too. "Oh, I use Linux, I'm l337!" I guess I get "quick on the draw" sometimes because I constantly have PC users telling me how much Macs suck and making fun of my machine, and then people who hardly know anything about Linux saying how Linux is the best OS on the planet.

If you're gonna run an OS, use it. Don't just keep it cause you think it looks pretty.

Right, exactly right. I couldn't agree more.

Like I said, Linux is still in its infancy. The Mac OS wasn't nearly as cool now back in the mid- to late 80s. Everything'll take time. Like I said, I love Linux for server applications. I might be putting up a server soon (friend and I might start a sort of video business -- you know, for special occasions like weddings and that sort of thing -- but not sure about that yet, we're waiting until he gets back from Brazil to decide) and I'm researching whether to go with Linux or OS X Server. We'll be using Macs a lot so OS X Server is probably a better way to go, but the fact that I am even considering Linux shows that I feel the OS has some potential. But for desktop machines, I just can't stand using it. Now, if they could make a slightly better interface and make it a little more intuitive for the average person, it'd be great. I can make my way around in it, but I know if my Dad ever got his hands on a Linux box, he'd go nuts. What Linux needs is to be so simple that even guys like my Dad love using it.

All that being said, if I had to pick a favorite OS, it'd be FreeBSD.

Ah yes, great OS, hands down.